Signals : Ask & Say Anything & Everything About MQL5 Trading Signals - page 7

phi nuts
2092
phi nuts  
ymleong:

Hi Phi,


No, this is in regards to that article on MT4 <you mean MT5 online help files> "Copy Stop Loss and Take Profit" parameter. I am running MT4, build 451. Pls refer below which I copied and paste from the article: 

  • Copy Stop Loss and Take Profit levelsStop Loss and Take Profit placed at the provider's account will be also placed on your trading account if this option is enabled. These orders are executed at the broker's side. It means that they are executed regardless of whether the client terminal has been launched or not. Also, execution can be performed at completely different brokerage companies (if subscriber and provider have different brokers).
    Therefore, it is guaranteed that a position will be closed when copying Stop orders in case a specified profit and loss levels have been reached. However, in some cases <only in some cases> a Stop order on a subscriber's account can be triggered before receiving an appropriate signal from the provider (for example, due to a slight difference in quotes). In this case, position will be reversed, as two deals will be actually performed (position is closed due to a Stop order at your broker and is opened in the opposite direction after a signal from your provider arrives).

It meant if I tick "copy stop loss and take profit", the SL and TP will be copied along with the signals <true :)>. Since the subscriber's and provider's broker price data may be different, SL and TP will be executed AGAINST the subscriber's broker as the levels are hit irregardless <you meant : regardless, no ? :)> of whether the provider has sent a Closed order signal

At the same time, a reverse order is placed when a closed signal is received from your provider.<true :)>

But according to you, this reversal order to closed position is for MT5, but even that will not happen <I'll explain below - that's why MQ says in some cases>, and it does NOT affect MT4, thus it is better to copy SL, and TP, esp SL as the trade can keep running to larger and larger losses if there is huge price difference between the subscriber's broker acct and provider's broker acct. Did I now get this correct? <half  :D>

~0 (still somewhat confused) <happy new year ;D>

1. Oh that, the article on MT5 online-help-files (https://www.metatrader5.com/en/terminal/help/signal_subscriber ). 

2. Do you know how trading in MT5 works ? Here's how it works :

Say, we open buy EURUSD at 2.34 lots, and we set SL and TP. Now, there are 2 ways if we want to close this buy position. First let it hit SL / TP or send opposite order at the same lot, in our case, to close this buy position, we open sell EURUSD at 2.34 lots. However, is there is no buy position anymore, this open sell that was intended to close that buy position, will become an open sell.

What MQ was talking about is this : with our trade above, say subscriber position is already closed hit by SL / TP,  (... position is closed due to a Stop order at your broker...) and then signal provider send a close signal. This close signal is executed on subscriber account. However, since subscriber have no position to close, this close signal become an open position (in reverse position from the previous position) ( ... is opened in the opposite direction after a signal from your provider arrives.

Now, why MQ call it "only in some cases" and not all cases ?. Because right now, in this forum, many forumer complains that some broker does NOT execute SL and TP, some complains that they even can NOT set SL and TP. Therefore, that close signal will be executed to close position and will not become an opened position. However, some broker still executed that SL / TP. That's what MQ says "only in some cases".

Fortunately, MT5 does NOT have OCO (Order Cancel the Other) while other trade platform like CQG, Currenex, etc, have it. Here' s what OCO in investopedia.

Why, I said that you are half correct (<half  :D>), that because if the next position is the opposite of the previous one, then you got nothing to lose. In our EURUSD case we will have sell to close open buy that does not exist, and then another sell is opened and the lot will be bigger that 2.34 lots

That won't affect MT4 for sure. Just tick that "Copy Stop Loss and Take Profit"

phi nuts
2092
phi nuts  
ymleong:
personally, i feel that is it quite fair if u charged abt USD0.30 per pip. Eg Average per mth eg 100pips, charged abt USD30 (in cases of losses etc). For those with mini accts, 1 lot (=10,000units) is abt USD1 so for average of 100pips, subscriber will get USD100 subtract your fees=USD70. So its kinda like profit sharing ratio that fund managers charges. Provided u really have the consistent results that prove it worth while to "buy" your signals. You can choose say 10% profit sharing based on average pips per month, and increase this as your results get better every month. Or you can choose to charge 10% for 1st month subscribers and incremental upto 30%. IMHO, its better to start up a service yourself and charged according to profits. You can look into SMS service or even trade copier software which u can distribute to your subscribers. NO PROFITS, NO CHARGES, and when its profitable, you get 30%. You can even attract subscribers by giving a guarantee, eg, 50pips per month, otherwise subscription will be free next month

Just a reminder :). It's OK to discuss trade copier, as long as not related to mql5 signal unless you want your subscription terminated by MQ.

Did you read the signal rules ?

VII. 8. Copying, selling, distribution, transmission or other actions directed to using the Signals for purposes other than intended, unless otherwise permitted.

VII. 9. Using Signals to access, copy, transfer, transcode or retransmitting Signals in violation of any law or third party rights.

VII.10.Reproduction, copying, selling, exchange and reselling Signals service, unless otherwise permitted by a separate agreement with MQL5 Ltd. 

phi nuts
2092
phi nuts  
ymleong:

Hopefully someone can tell me why is it that this signal provider has good profits, good winning pips, but NEGATIVE PIPS as seen on MT4 signals tab

https://www.mql5.com/en/signals/1218#!tab=history&page=5

On the MT4 signal tab, this provider has 522 total trades, 2278% winning %, but NEGATIVE 1676pips? But looking at his stats, its positive and the growth looks ok. Just very confused how they calculate the pips to be negative when the P/L is positive, Profit ratio is good??

Have no idea why it still like that: Question about mql signals and MQL5 signal provider reporting VERY errortic and Signal : Ask & Say Anything & Everything About MQL5 Trading Signal

Yang May Leong
4625
Yang May Leong  
phi.nuts:

1. Oh that, the article on MT5 online-help-files (https://www.metatrader5.com/en/terminal/help/signal_subscriber ). 

2. Do you know how trading in MT5 works ? Here's how it works :

Say, we open buy EURUSD at 2.34 lots, and we set SL and TP. Now, there are 2 ways if we want to close this buy position. First let it hit SL / TP or send opposite order at the same lot, in our case, to close this buy position, we open sell EURUSD at 2.34 lots. However, is there is no buy position anymore, this open sell that was intended to close that buy position, will become an open sell.

What MQ was talking about is this : with our trade above, say subscriber position is already closed hit by SL / TP,  (... position is closed due to a Stop order at your broker...) and then signal provider send a close signal. This close signal is executed on subscriber account. However, since subscriber have no position to close, this close signal become an open position (in reverse position from the previous position) ( ... is opened in the opposite direction after a signal from your provider arrives.

Now, why MQ call it "only in some cases" and not all cases ?. Because right now, in this forum, many forumer complains that some broker does NOT execute SL and TP, some complains that they even can NOT set SL and TP. Therefore, that close signal will be executed to close position and will not become an opened position. However, some broker still executed that SL / TP. That's what MQ says "only in some cases".

Fortunately, MT5 does NOT have OCO (Order Cancel the Other) while other trade platform like CQG, Currenex, etc, have it. Here' s what OCO in investopedia.

Why, I said that you are half correct (<half  :D>), that because if the next position is the opposite of the previous one, then you got nothing to lose. In our EURUSD case we will have sell to close open buy that does not exist, and then another sell is opened and the lot will be bigger that 2.34 lots

That won't affect MT4 for sure. Just tick that "Copy Stop Loss and Take Profit"

Hi Phi,


Thanks a lot for your explanation. here's what I PAINFULLY discovered on my 1st day of using trading signals on my LIVE acct after setting it to trade demo for 2 weeks. The acct is doing great and the signal provider has abt 85% win ratio and abt 1-4 trades signals per day. All is going well. Until provider opens 1.8lots and provider has 1:100 leverage, I had 1:500 leverage, and my open position was 2.16lots! In a panic (like all 1st timer), I reduced the % of deposit from 20% to 10%. Guess what? MT4 automatically closed half of my position (since 10% is half of 20%) at market rate, which meant I lost USD618.

NEVER had I thought that MT4 would do that. I assume that it will only used that new % to create new positions, not affect current positions. But looking back at the logic of how it arrived at what lot size to use based on % of deposit against leverage settings (refer to article u mentioned, I believed its there), it makes sense that since I changed the % then I should have lesser lot to allocate to trades. But WHY closed half my trades at prevailing market rate instead of only affecting NEW trades order? It was a shock all right, coz even that article did not mentioned this "intelligence" that MT4 will do!!!

(by half, I meant eg MT4 opens 2.16lots, since I reduce to 10% deposit, from 20%, thus it closed that trade to 1.08, and left the other 1.08 still running)

CRY!....

Yang May Leong
4625
Yang May Leong  
phi.nuts:

Just a reminder :). It's OK to discuss trade copier, as long as not related to mql5 signal unless you want your subscription terminated by MQ.

Did you read the signal rules ?

VII. 8. Copying, selling, distribution, transmission or other actions directed to using the Signals for purposes other than intended, unless otherwise permitted.

VII. 9. Using Signals to access, copy, transfer, transcode or retransmitting Signals in violation of any law or third party rights.

VII.10.Reproduction, copying, selling, exchange and reselling Signals service, unless otherwise permitted by a separate agreement with MQL5 Ltd. 

Hi Phi, this was in reply to a forum user who ask what he should charge for his signals. I am just giving him my personal opinion, that he could also used trade copier for his subscribers or start his own PAMM whatever he chooses. Not to copy HIS signals, rather to ask him to consider other means of earning for his signals.

I understand that most developers may find using MQL5 community easier to manage their "sales" of signals, but there may be some who had more capital and wished to earn more. To each his own I guess. A very highly successful signal provider can always stop his services and start up his own PAMM or whatever he wanted and subscribers will just have to follow him if they still wish to profit from his signals. Its not a violation and subscribers are not copying HIS signals and re-selling it.

phi nuts
2092
phi nuts  
ymleong:

Hi Phi,


Thanks a lot for your explanation. here's what I PAINFULLY discovered on my 1st day of using trading signals on my LIVE acct after setting it to trade demo for 2 weeks. The acct is doing great and the signal provider has abt 85% win ratio and abt 1-4 trades signals per day. All is going well. Until provider opens 1.8lots and provider has 1:100 leverage, I had 1:500 leverage, and my open position was 2.16lots! In a panic (like all 1st timer), I reduced the % of deposit from 20% to 10%. Guess what? MT4 automatically closed half of my position (since 10% is half of 20%) at market rate, which meant I lost USD618.

NEVER had I thought that MT4 would do that. I assume that it will only used that new % to create new positions, not affect current positions. But looking back at the logic of how it arrived at what lot size to use based on % of deposit against leverage settings (refer to article u mentioned, I believed its there), it makes sense that since I changed the % then I should have lesser lot to allocate to trades. But WHY closed half my trades at prevailing market rate instead of only affecting NEW trades order? It was a shock all right, coz even that article did not mentioned this "intelligence" that MT4 will do!!!

(by half, I meant eg MT4 opens 2.16lots, since I reduce to 10% deposit, from 20%, thus it closed that trade to 1.08, and left the other 1.08 still running)

CRY!....

My sympathy that you loss that way :(, Loss never is a friend for traders, but unfortunately it always around. But anyway, thank you for writing your experience here, coz it's rare that traders share their loss story, hopefully it will be lesson learned for other traders too.

Cheers, and may the pips be with you . 

 

Miguelito Yap
500
Miguelito Yap  

Sorry I have to go back to this.

Copy Stop Loss and Take Profit levelsStop Loss and Take Profit placed at the provider's account will be also placed on your trading account if this option is enabled. These orders are executed at the broker's side. It means that they are executed regardless of whether the client terminal has been launched or not. Also, execution can be performed at completely different brokerage companies (if subscriber and provider have different brokers).
Therefore, it is guaranteed that a position will be closed when copying Stop orders in case a specified profit and loss levels have been reached. However, in some cases a Stop order on a subscriber's account can be triggered before receiving an appropriate signal from the provider (for example, due to a slight difference in quotes). In this case, position will be reversed, as two deals will be actually performed (position is closed due to a Stop order at your broker and is opened in the opposite direction after a signal from your provider arrives).

Pehaps Copy Stop Loss and Take Profit Levels should not be enabled or ticked.  Since the acounts will always be synchronized, the open positions should be the same.  When a provider's position disappears due to SL, TP or CloseOrder, it should also be synch to the subscribers  So it is not necessary to enable Copy SL and TP.

Can you verify and confirm my understanding of synching? 

phi nuts
2092
phi nuts  
fxyekim:

Sorry I have to go back to this.

...

Pehaps Copy Stop Loss and Take Profit Levels should not be enabled or ticked.  Since the acounts will always be synchronized, the open positions should be the same.  When a provider's position disappears due to SL, TP or CloseOrder, it should also be synch to the subscribers  So it is not necessary to enable Copy SL and TP.

Can you verify and confirm my understanding of synching? 

No need to sorry :).

All of this below, apply only to MT5 and not to MT4. 

Yes you have correct understanding of synchronization between signal provider's and its subscriber's account.

What user ymleong asked about was this : What happen to subscriber account, if subscriber select "Copy Stop Loss and Take Profit levels", and subscriber position is closed due SL /TP but provider position is still open ?. According to the help files - in some cases - when provider send close signal to close his position, this close signal become open position on subscriber account.

Problematic indeed, if we think about this far further :(.

Miguelito Yap
500
Miguelito Yap  

We have to think of all possible cases for incurring loses inadvertently.  It's already a very risky proposition.

phi nuts
2092
phi nuts  
fxyekim:

We have to think of all possible cases for incurring loses inadvertently.  It's already a very risky proposition.

Indeed.