Discussion of article "Do Traders Need Services From Developers?" - page 7

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Renat:

Don't have exact data on Wahoo and hnp2500.

  1. Why do you think freelancing is only about working in public services? I'd say there's an iceberg under the water there.
  2. "At our place in Peter" - I wrote above about the narrowness of perception of the world. As a minimum, working as a conductor is many times more stressful than working as a programmer, and as a maximum, the cost of work floats absolutely wildly in the world. Programmers in Russia have long ago become a privileged category and are seriously outstripped in terms of earnings from the rest.
  3. The method of superficial comparisons, including "like in a McDonald's" is not a technical style that should be followed by people working with figures. If you write in that style, you have to go around with specifications and tolerances.

I don't have the exact data. Nor do you, because a lot of work takes place outside the service. That's why you have to operate with various assumptions, simplifications and inaccurate estimates.

Let's try to be precise. Let's assume that Bolkonsky is not lying and a good freelancer has 15-20 orders per month, only half of which go through official freelancing:

abolk:

If we don't take into account the "achievements" of a couple of d'Artagnans with questionable rates, volumes and costs -- the average individual monthly "norm" of 10-20 orders ...

Bolkonsky is at the top, which means he works very hard. We take the average value of his orders from the same freelancing. It is unlikely that outside of freelancing he takes more or less than in it. Total we get: 20*47$= 940$ This is again about 30 000 - 35 000 rubles per month.

Assume that Wahoo firm can also be because the marginal productivity of freelancer is known. The same 15-20 orders per month. This is not little. Wahoo performs 34 orders per month, while the complexity of these orders is clearly greater, because their average cost is significantly higher than the cost of the same Bolkonsky. So it turns out that we have one more indirect fact that Wahoo works in a team of at least two people.

 

As far as I can see (roughly, I didn't count exactly), the actual cost of work in the English zone is clearly higher than in the Russian-speaking zone.

Pay attention to the cost of work and the language of reviews from the performers. As usual, it is obviously harder for programmers to make money inside Russia.

 
Renat:
  1. "At our place in St. Petersburg" - I wrote above about the narrowness of the world perception. At least, working as a conductor is much harder than working as a programmer, and at most, the cost of work in the world floats wildly. Programmers in Russia have long ago become a privileged category and have seriously outstripped the rest in terms of earnings.

It's true that our coders are overworked. A person comes from uni, knows nothing, can't do anything, but be kind enough to give him 100 000 rubles a month, he simply won't agree to anything less. Or another example, a person at a job interview, pretending to be a signore, is asked the following question: how does this for loop work?

for(int i = 0; i < total; i++, k--)...

He will hear so much that his hair will stand on end. People don't know, but everyone wants a hundred a month.

 
C-4:

Wahoo is obviously a company with several outsourced coders. I don't believe that it is possible to fulfil two or three orders a day, as wahoo does. A single person can't do it, even with his own code base. So it turns out that a hundred should be divided into at least several people. hnp2500 is probably the same.

Second - the earnings for two years are specified (almost exactly). I.e. we divide wahoo's hundredth in half. We get 1,500,000 rubles at the average exchange rate. For three people (I think there are not less than that) it is 500,000 rubles a year. For a person it turns out about 40,000 rubles a month. In St. Petersburg, a conductor on a tram gets 35,000 a month. A makdak employee gets about the same. Well, the firm "wahoo & Co." managed to earn a little more than a conductor, and this is a top freelancer.

Let's do the math for Bolkonsky: that's $14,000 over two years or $7,000 a year. Let's assume that official freelancing is only half of his orders. Multiply the profit twice, we get $14,000 a year or $35,000 a month at the average rate. Yay. We got the average macdonald's salary.

The question is, why study mcl, why waste time and effort? To fight for every order and eventually earn as much as you can without training to earn in mcdakk?

Just because you can't do something doesn't mean others can't. Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean it can't happen.

I fulfilled all my orders myself and did not share my money with anyone.

If you can't write 3 EAs a day, doing it full-time - it only speaks about your level as a developer.

About TOP. Instead of spreading snot on the forum and saying that it is unattainable, you should work. Work hard and well.

I got to the top in 6 months. It took hnp2500 about the same amount of time. Diubakin also broke into the top after he started actively taking orders in the English section of the service. It is not easy, but it is possible. The top is because everyone can't be there.

 
Wahoo:

Just because you can't do something doesn't mean that others can't do it. Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean it can't happen.

I fulfilled all my orders myself and did not share my money with anyone.

If you can't write 3 EAs per day, doing it full-time - it only speaks about your level as a developer.

About TOP. Instead of spreading snot on the forum and saying that it is unattainable, you should work. Work hard and well.

I got to the top in 6 months. It took hnp2500 about the same amount of time. Diubakin also broke into the top after he started actively taking orders in the English section of the service. It is not easy, but it is possible. That's why it's top, because everyone can't be there.

You sound convincing. Can you tell me the secret of success? How many hours a day do you work? How do you win "tenders" for orders?
 
C-4:
You sound convincing. Why don't you tell me the secret to success? How many hours a day do you work? How do you win "bids" for orders?

No secrets. At first, I submitted bids for all the jobs. Mostly in the English-speaking part. There were very few active developers there 2 years ago. The last year I mainly worked with accumulated clients - revisions of the previous ones and new orders.

I worked many hours a day, but the main time was spent not on coding, but on working with clients. Mail, discussions, explanations, etc.

Now I'm done with freelancing.

 
papaklass:

In my opinion, the TOP is not needed at all. :)

The presence of the TOP creates prerequisites for various kinds of frauds. And as a result of fighting against this, developers have to spend effort to create various filters to counteract these machinations. Developments in 45 seconds have already been mentioned here.

There is a problem in the Service: at the initial stage (TOR discussion) both the customer and the developer discuss something that cannot be "touched with hands".

Suggestion:

1. The customer puts his wishes on the tender. For example, we need an Expert Advisor on 2 moving averages with the possibility of setting a trailing stop.

2. Executors willing to participate in the tender, provide the customer with protected versions of advisors with a description of its work and indicate their prices. The good MC guarantees protection from decompilation.

3. The customer tries the submitted works and chooses the executor and his EA for further work.

4. They draw up TOR for improving the EA.

Although this scheme is not free from the principle "make a fool pray to God and he will break his forehead".

But when organising the work of the Service according to this scheme:

1. There is no need to fight for getting to the TOP;

2. The customer and the executor discuss a specific advisor. The customer can clearly formulate aspects that he is not satisfied with in the work of the advisor and what needs to be added, corrected, etc.

And if the order is complex enough? In any case, regardless of the complexity of the order, 90% of the freelancer's time will be spent on coding essentially unnecessary codes. After all, it is not necessarily that he will win the tender. And where should he put all this rubbish? Time is spent, but the code remains unclaimed. Sell it later in the Market? Well, then the Market will be flooded with a huge number of essentially identical products from those freelancers who remained unpaid but with the code. Then brutal dumping will begin there as well.
 
Wahoo:

There are no secrets. I applied for all the jobs at first. Predominantly in the English-speaking part. There were very few active developers there 2 years ago. Last year I mainly worked with accumulated clients - revisions of previous clients and new orders.

I worked many hours a day, but the main time was spent not on coding, but on working with clients. Mail, discussions, explanations, etc.

Now I'm done with freelancing.

But why!!!? You are in the top and earned the most! What's the reason?
 
C-4:
But why!? You were at the top and earning the most money! What's the reason?
There's a time for everything. I never planned on custom coding my whole life. It's time for me to move on.
 
papaklass:

...<Then there will be severe dumping.

I think it's already started. It is noticeable in the segment of experts. When the market started, experts were $2,000-$3,000. There were even more expensive ones. Now a lot of junk experts are sold for $200 - $300. Buyers are mostly unqualified. If there are two beautiful pictures, one priced at $2,000 and the other at $200, they will buy the one for $200, sincerely believing that they are the same.
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